Canon vs. Non-Canon

[redroses2]

What are your opinions in general about shipping canon pairings vs. shipping non-canon pairings?

Personally, I have more fun with shipping non-canon pairings. Canon pairings are pointless to fight for because the author is already shipping them. Non-canon, on the other hand, can be as personalized and I could ever want them to be. I also just don't feel as passionately about most canon ships as I do non-canon ones.

[HikariNoRyuu]

I love coming up with random non-canon pairings when I watch anime. Usually, by the time I finish an anime, I have a list of at least 10 non-canon ships that I like (Kyou Kara Maou, in particular. I must have about 20 for that one... ^^; )

[TKB]

As long as the two characters end in a "bang", I'm happy.

[redroses2]

*giggles* Bang. *mimics Yusuke Urameshi's trademark*

I r 12.

Immaturity aside, I personally find non-canon pairings to be more fun to read fan fiction for. Canon pairings, for the most part, tend to be rather stagnant in my head and I can't enjoy fan fiction about them nearly as much as I can for non-canon ones. The only exceptions I really have are for Harry x Ginny from Harry Potter - I can think of ways for me to make them into an interesting couple that otherwise sounds completely horrid to me.

[HikariNoRyuu]

Aug 28, 2011 20:09:34 GMT -5 TKB said:

As long as the two characters end in a "bang", I'm happy.

LMAO!!

[weeaboo]

I tend to go with canon, or with the runner-up. You know, the one-sided one that never goes anywhere. I usually have to see a lot of interaction and relationship development before I really start caring about a ship.

[pinkpajamas]

I prefer canon pairings because they can help giving a dynamic view to a character. Because these two characters DO fall in love and are meant to have a relationship, it can reveal aspects of each characters' personality and attributes. It adds something, especially if two characters are together, who would not normally be paired. Like if you have one character who is mean and distant and cynical who is involved with a more optimistic, bright spirited kind of person, I think it can reveal something about both characters that they would be attracted to their opposites.

[redroses2]

Sept 4, 2011 11:13:21 GMT -5 pinkpajamas said:

I prefer canon pairings because they can help giving a dynamic view to a character. Because these two characters DO fall in love and are meant to have a relationship, it can reveal aspects of each characters' personality and attributes. It adds something, especially if two characters are together, who would not normally be paired. Like if you have one character who is mean and distant and cynical who is involved with a more optimistic, bright spirited kind of person, I think it can reveal something about both characters that they would be attracted to their opposites.

If it's a canon pairing that doesn't feel forced in any way, then I agree whole-heartedly. I just haven't really read anything where I feel like the chemistry between the canon couples is what it should be as a couple. Hence the mostly shipping non-canon couples. But there are some canon pairings I like. Isaac x Miria and Jacuzzi x Nice from Baccano, Ron x Hermione from Harry Potter, stuff like that.

[pinkpajamas]

Well Rose, if you're talking about forced relationships, then by that definition, anything NON canon IS forced.

Just saying.

[TKB]

No canon is the best canon.

[redroses2]

Sept 4, 2011 20:13:05 GMT -5 pinkpajamas said:

Well Rose, if you're talking about forced relationships, then by that definition, anything NON canon IS forced.

Just saying.

I'm more of a reader-response/formalist when it comes to picking out my pairings. I don't ship anything that doesn't have strong chemistry in the subtext - or in some cases, blatant text but is completely ignored by the other characters. You're apparently in the historical criticism/the-author's-word-is-law camp. I'm not saying that's a bad thing - it can come in pretty handy when figuring out things about a text/film/anime.

When it's applied to shipping, sparks start to fly. Many people with your same opinion are often viewed as unimaginative and boring if they blatantly ignore the subtext for a non-canon shipping. (I'm mostly talking about the Harry Potter shipping right now, since I often see both sides of the argument on tumblr. There's some pretty intense debate between Wolfstar shipping and Remus x Tonks shippers, and the poor shmucks who ship both have to duck for cover.)

While there are dumber arguments among the shipping wars (some people are seriously threatened by Draco x Apple. As in the apple Draco was using to test out the Vanishing Cabinet in the sixth movie.), there are still plenty of valid arguments that pull in other issues, like how little LGBT characters are stated in simple text. Sherlock Holmes's sexuality has been under scrutiny for a very long time - with entire essays written about how the subtext strongly hints and him and Watson being a couple throughout the series. But canon-wise, Watson had two wives and thought plenty of women to be attractive, and Holmes wasn't interested in anybody. Contrary to popular belief, Irene Adler isn't even a canon love interest. Watson never specifies what Holmes means by "THE woman."

Granted, the number of homosexual characters in anime are much more plentiful in anime and manga, the Japanese attitude towards homosexuality makes it 1) mostly restricted to porn or 2) a butt of a joke. Even when it's cute and adorable and squee-inducing, it's either for fanservice or for laughs. I've never seen a serious scene between two openly gay anime characters. (It's possible that Sailor Moon has a couple examples, but even then, one was portrayed as a poisonous relationship that was inferior to the heterosexual, very much canon couple.) Very few anime and manga will actually take the concept seriously, and it's even worse for transgender individuals. As much as I love Grell from Black Butler, sometimes I wonder if Grell behaves the way she does simply because she's Grell or if she's portrayed that way because of transphobic thinking.

Long story short, sometimes canon is only canon because the author either didn't have the guts to make something else canon, the author ended up creating characters who didn't match up the way he/she wanted them to but he/she forced characters together regardless - resulting in boring, flat relationships and lazy writing - or the characters are capable of thoughts, attractions, attitudes, and beliefs that the author isn't capable of or chooses not to comprehend. (Unfortunately, I've run into this a thousand times in my own writing, when my characters end up being so separated from what I know myself that I end up writing them in a way that makes them not them anymore, but a warped version of them that I am able to understand better.)

[pinkpajamas]

While your points are valid, Rose, I can't help but think that maybe more homo/trans sexual relationships would be taken seriously if they weren't the butt of the joke. And while part of that is a societal thing, I know that in America, many people don't take anime seriously because of all the people who get into shipping wars over characters, often times pairing them up for the sake of yaoi or yuri.

While I'm not saying that HAVINg yaoi and yuri is a bad thing, I think that if the supporters were classier about it, then people wouldn't view it as such a joke. Because even now, the term "yaoi" has a certain connotation which does not reflex well for the homosexual culture.

And while some people might see my enjoyment for canon as "unoriginal" or following "the author's word is law" rule, I don't give a care. I DO think that in most cases, the author's word is law. As a writer, I know that if people started shipping some of my own characters with each other, when they are actually, canonly, in a relationship with someone else, I would be insulted and not like it. Out of respect for the authors, I try to respect their decisions.

But there ARE cases like Sherlock Holmes which were actually MEANT to bring up those topics in the Victorian Society. But Sherlock Holmes is a higher form of writing. It is Literature and satire and very high quality.

No offense, but I do NOT EVER count anime and manga in the same boat as Sherlock Holmes of Shakespeare (who also had much homoerotic implications).

[redroses2]

There are plenty of authors who encourage non-canon shipping, though. Heck, the author of Black Butler actively encourages and praises doujinshi artists who produce porn of her work, and the author of Durarara!! wrote a fan fiction that slashed together Shizuo and Izaya. He wrote it under a pen name, and it's in English. (I haven't read it myself yet, but Katherine Xiao told me about it.) J. K. Rowling also encourages fan fiction and non-canon shipping, such as Wolfstar, a.k.a. Remus x Sirius. Then there are the creators of Avatar: The Last Airbender who had a lot of fun messing with shippers heads and making up their own non-canon pairings that they would advocate at cons that (they at least hoped) would disturb the fans. These kinds of authors/creators take joy in the fact that people care enough about their work to put so much imagination and effort into it. It's a way of showing appreciation, and they recognize it as such.

On the other hand, there are authors who are appalled that this exists, and they turn into mean jerks who betray their own story, simply because they like a particular pairing. In "Little Women," the entire reason Jo gets with Bear (sp?) is because, back when the book was published in two separate volumes (leaving time in between volumes for the author to continue writing it), the author was approached by a fan who really wanted Jo and Teddy to get married. Apparently, she flipped out because someone actually dared to have an opinion about who her main character should get with and wrote in a random character for Jo to get with instead of Teddy.

On a different note, you can accept and respect an author's decision to pair off characters with whoever they want them to be with. You just have a different opinion about it and you write your own fan fiction and draw your own fan art to your heart's content instead of being a jerk about it and writing angry e-mails to the author saying they got the "couples wrong."

As important as respect for the author is, the author should also have respect for their fans, because they kind of wouldn't have a living doing what they loved without them. So if the author isn't respectful enough to accept that people are going to have opinions about their stories, then they don't deserve respect in return. If I was a fan of a series that was made by someone like that, I would be shipping crack pairings just to spite them. Lucky for me, I'm not. (yet. *shudders*)

As for the LGBT issues within anime/manga/books/etc, that's going to need a whole new post.

[redroses2]

Sept 5, 2011 14:10:33 GMT -5 pinkpajamas said:

While your points are valid, Rose, I can't help but think that maybe more homo/trans sexual relationships would be taken seriously if they weren't the butt of the joke. And while part of that is a societal thing, I know that in America, many people don't take anime seriously because of all the people who get into shipping wars over characters, often times pairing them up for the sake of yaoi or yuri.

While I'm not saying that HAVINg yaoi and yuri is a bad thing, I think that if the supporters were classier about it, then people wouldn't view it as such a joke. Because even now, the term "yaoi" has a certain connotation which does not reflex well for the homosexual culture.

. . . .

"Homosexual culture."

. . . .

I don't know who came up with that concept, but that is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. Being queer does not define my culture in any way, shape, or form. It doesn't define one's culture no matter where you are. Where you are determines how you express your sexuality.

As for being "classier," people are obscene about hentai all the time. The difference is no one cares because it's acceptable to be heterosexual. People expect you to brush it off and move on with your life. When people are just "LA LA LA YAOI YURI PORN LA LA LA," all of a sudden the same behavior in regards to hentai is even more disgusting and insulting. Sure, homosexuals don't actually behave that way, their relationships don't act that way. But neither do the hetero relationships in hentai. Hentai, yaoi, and yuri are created and written in the same way - it's how we as a society interpret it is the problem.

And this is what I have the biggest problem with what you've said: "While your points are valid, Rose, I can't help but think that maybe more homo/trans sexual relationships would be taken seriously if they weren't the butt of the joke."

. . . .

Gay and trans characters are MADE OUT TO BE A JOKE by CISGENDER, HETEROSEXUAL WRITERS, ARTISTS, AND CREATORS. It is a form of discrimination. The Japanese do not believe LGBT or any other non-heterosexual, non-cisgender identity to be an identity at all, but an act, something that has no business being anything but a joke. We've seen a teaser anime that clearly came from someone who knew what it was like to be Japanese and trans* - and that first episode was heart-breaking. It was making us cry. But it's a very rare thing. It is NOT something the LGBT community has any real control over. All they can do is try to create things that will show various sexualities and gender identities as legitimate definitions and identities. This issue was unavoidable before anime even existed. To say that the only way to avoid being depicted as such is to not be depicted as such is very . . . infuriating. To say the least.

[pinkpajamas]

Ok, Rose, please re-think your anger at my comments, because I AM AGREEING WITH YOU.

I think that there are NOT enough accurate, realistic depictions of LGTBQ characters in anime, books, TV shows, what have you. I think that this issue needs to be better represented.

My only issue is that the way SOME PEOPLE treat yaoi-yuri is not respectful to this cultural group. And for the record, I don't approve of the way hentai depicts heterosexual couples either.

And about my refering to homosexuality as a culture, please don;t taker personal offense. If you don;t see it as part of your culture, that is your prerogative. But I one of the definitions of "culture" is: the behaviors and beliefs characteristic of a particular social, ethnic, or age group: the youth culture; the drug culture.

And I personally consider homosexuality, transsexuality, hetersexuality, or sexuality in general, to be part of a person's culture. Because it affects their lives and their positions in society.

But that is just my OPINION, you don't have to agree with me.